your posts are helpful and induce a lot of productive thinking. I like to respond in the same spirit, to scholars who trigger such thinking, in a desire to engage in ways that help us both think more clearly in areas of common interest.
Your post leads me to frame three sets of question, to bring greater clarity.
the first question is 'what is the church?', as an institution; and the second question that completes the set is 'what is the mission of the church?'. That frames a pretty broad area to think about, but the reason for positing this set, is to differentiate it from the next set:
WHO are the 'called out ones', and what is OUR guiding focus and purpose?
The answer to this question is one best and most concisely framed by a trained theologian, i am an academic who has delved into theology for a long time, but I would defer to your area of scholarly engagement on this, but suggest that the framing of the first part is answered by saying 'we are the BODY of Christ, distinct from the culture and world we live in; and the second part, is best answered by two separate, rather comprehensive looks, one at the life of Jesus, where He defines His purpose at the beginning of His 3 years of ministry, as 'gospel ministry' which is not a nebulous or modern 'american evangelical' answer; but an answer given definition to in Luke 4: 17-21, in which Jesus defines gospel ministry by naming four specific groups He came for; the answer to 'what is gospel ministry' guided by Jesus proclamation when He began it, is then flushed out by His example in all four gospels, taken together, asking the question 'what did He actually DO in MINISTERING to the poor, the captives, the blind (and others with sickness) and the oppressed?
the second place to look is at the life of Paul, shown us in both Acts and his letters; considering in the same overview of a look at Jesus in the gospels to discern 'minstry focus'. paul's ministry focus is visible if we look at his life given us and his letters as a whole. It's somehow not something taught much-how to 'look at a body of work' and separate out the main themes-but that was a common endeavor in my work as a scholar in medicine; looking at large segments of published work, aided by direct communcation with other scholars about their work, to define what they had uncovered and how they viewed it in light of a shared framework of 'how the body God designed works, and where do things go wrong'. We need that kind of 'systematic' thinking that theologians are trained to do, rather than the very limited perspective of a series of sermons that only look at a very limited number of verses at a time.
Since the theme this site began with is focussed on the LOTR, a single memory of the narrative comes to mind, when the hobbits were stuck in one of the forests-trying to find their way out-after days in the darkness-one climbed to the top-to get above the leaves-and looked out-and the narrator says if only he had discerned the cupping of the forest-he might have realized that they were very close to the end of it'. We need that 'forest' perspective; but have only limited looks at a region, an 'oak grove' definition in many theological frameworks, today, that ignores many other groves that exist in the forest of life, today. That was painfully true in medicine; we have had such a massive explosion of knowledge, if we only knew how to handle knowledge better today-we'd have real answers to some of the worst impact diseases have and be able to mitigate suffering of millions of human beings.. why this isn't even 'on the docket' of 'the church' is a mystery worth pondering... how to return to a focus on the people JESUS named, and came to redeem, is another worthwhile question to think about, as I note in the next set of questions.
The third set of questions is the one of central focus in this post: is 'what is OUR call to 'disciple'? and how do WE engage in this?. The second set relates to this; our focus in ministry involves a discipleship of the 'side by side engagment in LIFE together' kind that we see Jesus initiated as His first action after announcing He was beginning ministry; He called the twelve who walked side by side with Him as He minstered to the hurting, so they could learn by 'seeing and doing' how to minister and equip others to do the same...
and we need to figure out how to be the 'called out ones' who understand we are a single BODY, each of us connected to the Only Head of the Body that exists-Jesus the Christ.
A theologian as yourself could really help flush this out to a practical, workable level...
Is the problem that "we [pastors/ministry people?] are thinking about people as if they are machines", or that those people are acting as if they're the ones responsible for changing and shaping people, not God?
I'm not saying you should necessarily believe 'magical thinking' about God just 'downloading' formation onto people or something like that, but it seems like even avoiding the 'program' mindset still places the clergy in a place of responsibility in a formational sense and in a way that sort of creates a weird hierarchical or paternalistic relationship where they can end up being the ultimate authority.
I think being pastoral is important, and part of that is not necessarily expecting or looking for any particular outcome of formation, but merely listening and getting to know people and their hurts and spending time.
To piggy-back off of this...are there churches anymore where the pastors and elders visit people in their homes? This used to happen, but it doesn't seem like it happens much anymore. To your point about listening and getting to know people and their hurts/joys, it would be great to recover this kind of thing. I suppose in general we are losing the gathering-in-homes that used to happen more often.
It would be great to recover "pastors" who valued this sort of thing and genuinely were people with the character to do that and aren't products of some institutional ecosystem of "Christians" or "ministry" with funding and incentives no different than worldly institutions, valuing mammon, "growth", and image above all else, and guided politically by some of the same political operators in elite cities that have mismanaged our societies in the last few years and seem to still be running our societies into the ground. (And no, this isn't merely some reactionary Rod Dreher-esque take or right wing talking point.) Things are structurally broken with mainstream evangelicalism and moral leadership, and church/ministry norms are too influenced by networks of ostensibly "Christian" institutions and power brokers that are completely unaccountable and running programs based on their particular agendas or vision for how things work or should work, which seem sometimes more influenced by political incentives and are not clearly congruent with the work of God in the world, also judging by how structurally decaying everything is, the fact that we're talking about these issues where enough people are observing and commenting about similar things, and Kirsten is rightly to some extent a prophetic voice elucidating these things.
I guess church is like family… we don’t choose the family we’re born into but we care for them even though they can be annoying. The baseball analogy fits… Baseball is frustrating and beautiful. But it’s so dualistic. (Your team versus the evil Yankees.)
I agree completely with this, especially in how you have described the way our technological imaginary circumscribes the experiences that have acted as formative in previous generations. (Have you read Joseph Minich’s Pillars of Unbelief? It is a great exploration of this phenomenon).
oh my goodness! I need to sit with this for some time. My husband and I spent the weekend with a much younger couple in rural arizona where he pastors a very small church of mostly very low income,uneducated families. We, on the other hand, live in city and attend a fairly middle class church.
long discussions over meals and hiking while talking about our lives as Jesus followers. How some essential truths beyond statement of faiths are absent in both places. living faith. The weekend itself was more “ holy” than the last year of sundays.
your posts are helpful and induce a lot of productive thinking. I like to respond in the same spirit, to scholars who trigger such thinking, in a desire to engage in ways that help us both think more clearly in areas of common interest.
Your post leads me to frame three sets of question, to bring greater clarity.
the first question is 'what is the church?', as an institution; and the second question that completes the set is 'what is the mission of the church?'. That frames a pretty broad area to think about, but the reason for positing this set, is to differentiate it from the next set:
WHO are the 'called out ones', and what is OUR guiding focus and purpose?
The answer to this question is one best and most concisely framed by a trained theologian, i am an academic who has delved into theology for a long time, but I would defer to your area of scholarly engagement on this, but suggest that the framing of the first part is answered by saying 'we are the BODY of Christ, distinct from the culture and world we live in; and the second part, is best answered by two separate, rather comprehensive looks, one at the life of Jesus, where He defines His purpose at the beginning of His 3 years of ministry, as 'gospel ministry' which is not a nebulous or modern 'american evangelical' answer; but an answer given definition to in Luke 4: 17-21, in which Jesus defines gospel ministry by naming four specific groups He came for; the answer to 'what is gospel ministry' guided by Jesus proclamation when He began it, is then flushed out by His example in all four gospels, taken together, asking the question 'what did He actually DO in MINISTERING to the poor, the captives, the blind (and others with sickness) and the oppressed?
the second place to look is at the life of Paul, shown us in both Acts and his letters; considering in the same overview of a look at Jesus in the gospels to discern 'minstry focus'. paul's ministry focus is visible if we look at his life given us and his letters as a whole. It's somehow not something taught much-how to 'look at a body of work' and separate out the main themes-but that was a common endeavor in my work as a scholar in medicine; looking at large segments of published work, aided by direct communcation with other scholars about their work, to define what they had uncovered and how they viewed it in light of a shared framework of 'how the body God designed works, and where do things go wrong'. We need that kind of 'systematic' thinking that theologians are trained to do, rather than the very limited perspective of a series of sermons that only look at a very limited number of verses at a time.
Since the theme this site began with is focussed on the LOTR, a single memory of the narrative comes to mind, when the hobbits were stuck in one of the forests-trying to find their way out-after days in the darkness-one climbed to the top-to get above the leaves-and looked out-and the narrator says if only he had discerned the cupping of the forest-he might have realized that they were very close to the end of it'. We need that 'forest' perspective; but have only limited looks at a region, an 'oak grove' definition in many theological frameworks, today, that ignores many other groves that exist in the forest of life, today. That was painfully true in medicine; we have had such a massive explosion of knowledge, if we only knew how to handle knowledge better today-we'd have real answers to some of the worst impact diseases have and be able to mitigate suffering of millions of human beings.. why this isn't even 'on the docket' of 'the church' is a mystery worth pondering... how to return to a focus on the people JESUS named, and came to redeem, is another worthwhile question to think about, as I note in the next set of questions.
The third set of questions is the one of central focus in this post: is 'what is OUR call to 'disciple'? and how do WE engage in this?. The second set relates to this; our focus in ministry involves a discipleship of the 'side by side engagment in LIFE together' kind that we see Jesus initiated as His first action after announcing He was beginning ministry; He called the twelve who walked side by side with Him as He minstered to the hurting, so they could learn by 'seeing and doing' how to minister and equip others to do the same...
and we need to figure out how to be the 'called out ones' who understand we are a single BODY, each of us connected to the Only Head of the Body that exists-Jesus the Christ.
A theologian as yourself could really help flush this out to a practical, workable level...
William, you are a gift of a reader.
Is the problem that "we [pastors/ministry people?] are thinking about people as if they are machines", or that those people are acting as if they're the ones responsible for changing and shaping people, not God?
I'm not saying you should necessarily believe 'magical thinking' about God just 'downloading' formation onto people or something like that, but it seems like even avoiding the 'program' mindset still places the clergy in a place of responsibility in a formational sense and in a way that sort of creates a weird hierarchical or paternalistic relationship where they can end up being the ultimate authority.
I think being pastoral is important, and part of that is not necessarily expecting or looking for any particular outcome of formation, but merely listening and getting to know people and their hurts and spending time.
I like this question.
To piggy-back off of this...are there churches anymore where the pastors and elders visit people in their homes? This used to happen, but it doesn't seem like it happens much anymore. To your point about listening and getting to know people and their hurts/joys, it would be great to recover this kind of thing. I suppose in general we are losing the gathering-in-homes that used to happen more often.
It would be great to recover "pastors" who valued this sort of thing and genuinely were people with the character to do that and aren't products of some institutional ecosystem of "Christians" or "ministry" with funding and incentives no different than worldly institutions, valuing mammon, "growth", and image above all else, and guided politically by some of the same political operators in elite cities that have mismanaged our societies in the last few years and seem to still be running our societies into the ground. (And no, this isn't merely some reactionary Rod Dreher-esque take or right wing talking point.) Things are structurally broken with mainstream evangelicalism and moral leadership, and church/ministry norms are too influenced by networks of ostensibly "Christian" institutions and power brokers that are completely unaccountable and running programs based on their particular agendas or vision for how things work or should work, which seem sometimes more influenced by political incentives and are not clearly congruent with the work of God in the world, also judging by how structurally decaying everything is, the fact that we're talking about these issues where enough people are observing and commenting about similar things, and Kirsten is rightly to some extent a prophetic voice elucidating these things.
I guess church is like family… we don’t choose the family we’re born into but we care for them even though they can be annoying. The baseball analogy fits… Baseball is frustrating and beautiful. But it’s so dualistic. (Your team versus the evil Yankees.)
I agree completely with this, especially in how you have described the way our technological imaginary circumscribes the experiences that have acted as formative in previous generations. (Have you read Joseph Minich’s Pillars of Unbelief? It is a great exploration of this phenomenon).
oh my goodness! I need to sit with this for some time. My husband and I spent the weekend with a much younger couple in rural arizona where he pastors a very small church of mostly very low income,uneducated families. We, on the other hand, live in city and attend a fairly middle class church.
long discussions over meals and hiking while talking about our lives as Jesus followers. How some essential truths beyond statement of faiths are absent in both places. living faith. The weekend itself was more “ holy” than the last year of sundays.