Is the problem that "we [pastors/ministry people?] are thinking about people as if they are machines", or that those people are acting as if they're the ones responsible for changing and shaping people, not God?
I'm not saying you should necessarily believe 'magical thinking' about God just 'downloading' formation onto people or something like that, but it seems like even avoiding the 'program' mindset still places the clergy in a place of responsibility in a formational sense and in a way that sort of creates a weird hierarchical or paternalistic relationship where they can end up being the ultimate authority.
I think being pastoral is important, and part of that is not necessarily expecting or looking for any particular outcome of formation, but merely listening and getting to know people and their hurts and spending time.
To piggy-back off of this...are there churches anymore where the pastors and elders visit people in their homes? This used to happen, but it doesn't seem like it happens much anymore. To your point about listening and getting to know people and their hurts/joys, it would be great to recover this kind of thing. I suppose in general we are losing the gathering-in-homes that used to happen more often.
It would be great to recover "pastors" who valued this sort of thing and genuinely were people with the character to do that and aren't products of some institutional ecosystem of "Christians" or "ministry" with funding and incentives no different than worldly institutions, valuing mammon, "growth", and image above all else, and guided politically by some of the same political operators in elite cities that have mismanaged our societies in the last few years and seem to still be running our societies into the ground. (And no, this isn't merely some reactionary Rod Dreher-esque take or right wing talking point.) Things are structurally broken with mainstream evangelicalism and moral leadership, and church/ministry norms are too influenced by networks of ostensibly "Christian" institutions and power brokers that are completely unaccountable and running programs based on their particular agendas or vision for how things work or should work, which seem sometimes more influenced by political incentives and are not clearly congruent with the work of God in the world, also judging by how structurally decaying everything is, the fact that we're talking about these issues where enough people are observing and commenting about similar things, and Kirsten is rightly to some extent a prophetic voice elucidating these things.
I guess church is like family… we don’t choose the family we’re born into but we care for them even though they can be annoying. The baseball analogy fits… Baseball is frustrating and beautiful. But it’s so dualistic. (Your team versus the evil Yankees.)
I agree completely with this, especially in how you have described the way our technological imaginary circumscribes the experiences that have acted as formative in previous generations. (Have you read Joseph Minich’s Pillars of Unbelief? It is a great exploration of this phenomenon).
oh my goodness! I need to sit with this for some time. My husband and I spent the weekend with a much younger couple in rural arizona where he pastors a very small church of mostly very low income,uneducated families. We, on the other hand, live in city and attend a fairly middle class church.
long discussions over meals and hiking while talking about our lives as Jesus followers. How some essential truths beyond statement of faiths are absent in both places. living faith. The weekend itself was more “ holy” than the last year of sundays.
Is the problem that "we [pastors/ministry people?] are thinking about people as if they are machines", or that those people are acting as if they're the ones responsible for changing and shaping people, not God?
I'm not saying you should necessarily believe 'magical thinking' about God just 'downloading' formation onto people or something like that, but it seems like even avoiding the 'program' mindset still places the clergy in a place of responsibility in a formational sense and in a way that sort of creates a weird hierarchical or paternalistic relationship where they can end up being the ultimate authority.
I think being pastoral is important, and part of that is not necessarily expecting or looking for any particular outcome of formation, but merely listening and getting to know people and their hurts and spending time.
I like this question.
To piggy-back off of this...are there churches anymore where the pastors and elders visit people in their homes? This used to happen, but it doesn't seem like it happens much anymore. To your point about listening and getting to know people and their hurts/joys, it would be great to recover this kind of thing. I suppose in general we are losing the gathering-in-homes that used to happen more often.
It would be great to recover "pastors" who valued this sort of thing and genuinely were people with the character to do that and aren't products of some institutional ecosystem of "Christians" or "ministry" with funding and incentives no different than worldly institutions, valuing mammon, "growth", and image above all else, and guided politically by some of the same political operators in elite cities that have mismanaged our societies in the last few years and seem to still be running our societies into the ground. (And no, this isn't merely some reactionary Rod Dreher-esque take or right wing talking point.) Things are structurally broken with mainstream evangelicalism and moral leadership, and church/ministry norms are too influenced by networks of ostensibly "Christian" institutions and power brokers that are completely unaccountable and running programs based on their particular agendas or vision for how things work or should work, which seem sometimes more influenced by political incentives and are not clearly congruent with the work of God in the world, also judging by how structurally decaying everything is, the fact that we're talking about these issues where enough people are observing and commenting about similar things, and Kirsten is rightly to some extent a prophetic voice elucidating these things.
I guess church is like family… we don’t choose the family we’re born into but we care for them even though they can be annoying. The baseball analogy fits… Baseball is frustrating and beautiful. But it’s so dualistic. (Your team versus the evil Yankees.)
I agree completely with this, especially in how you have described the way our technological imaginary circumscribes the experiences that have acted as formative in previous generations. (Have you read Joseph Minich’s Pillars of Unbelief? It is a great exploration of this phenomenon).
oh my goodness! I need to sit with this for some time. My husband and I spent the weekend with a much younger couple in rural arizona where he pastors a very small church of mostly very low income,uneducated families. We, on the other hand, live in city and attend a fairly middle class church.
long discussions over meals and hiking while talking about our lives as Jesus followers. How some essential truths beyond statement of faiths are absent in both places. living faith. The weekend itself was more “ holy” than the last year of sundays.
William, you are a gift of a reader.