1) I wonder if some (or many) of the folks who are declaring themselves "cultural Christians" are engaging at the cognitive propositionalist level. I hear from them an emphasis on the "principles" of Christianity (whatever that might mean) and a certain amount of self-conscious effort to remain students of and many admirers of Christianity, but not adherents to Christianity.
2) I've been noodling a lot (and not researching very much, to be honest) about how formation as it's imagined in Deuteronomy may bring the cognitive and experiential elements together. (I wrote about that here, but I promise that's not why I commented)
I get your point but I think there is much that can be done to make such knowledge transferable across generations that won't require people invent it anew out of their personal experience, especially since many never had had this in depth.
To provide way too much detail around my personal interest, I have two young boys who are making their steps to taking hold of their faith on their own. I recently finished a Spiritual Formation degree and have begun to put together what I want to function like what Kirstin so eloquently describes. Working against me is my low-church background in a family that was cultural Christian at best.
I can see the shape of it, and have been striving to live it with my children, but I don't the benefit.of having had it embodied from an early age. I am enjoying the process of passing on what I have learned academically and experientially but I would love to align with others further down this way.
I think the problem with this becoming a 'replicable plan' would turning into a dictionary of terms that could be handed off minus the cultural aspect. Or the other hand giving a recipe for a certain kind of culture but not having a language. Whereas conceiving of it as 'cultural-linguistic' makes it the type of thing we become to inhabit over time by both learning a grammar or language within a cultural frame. As they say about learning a language it becomes your primary language when you 'dream' in it. So when I think about living it with my children it's not simple passing off the language of the faith or bible knowledge or assuming inhabiting a certain church culture as such doing the work but the nature of learning to live into the narrative frame of the world of this God that is absorbs the rest of world into a bigger picture of a life of faith.
‘This goal of my own writing is to help you to know him when you see him, and to provoke your hearts to burn anew with the memory of his presence in your midst.’
In one sense, this seems so simple, so obvious, what every Christian should be doing. But on the other hand, it is the most incredible thing - that we could reach aside the curtain of heaven and actually see the One who made the universe.
What role would you say spiritual disciplines play in catechesis - to practice this seeing, this learning of a language? The use of catechisms (instruction, study) alone & the "discipleship" model (applying the gospel to matters of the soul) alone are not sufficient for formation, as you point out. "He needs to watch what they do and how they do it by participating in their rituals, celebrations, and daily life." — It seems for many people, there were so few rituals, celebrations, or practices of daily life to wear deep grooves of the faith into their soul. There was marrying and burying and baptizing, and a lot community along with them. But the rhythms available to learn a "language" were just not there (any robust habits prayer - perhaps including the hours, fasting, sabbath-keeping, following the rhythms of a church calendar, etc, etc.) From my experience, a lot of what could have helped learn the language of faith in community were cut out at the risk of being "legalistic" or "works-based". They can certainly be used in ways that treat us as things or programmed computers. But many of us grew up craving trellises on which to hang the knowledge of catechesis and the soul-care type of discipleship. Maybe this is because they bring in the physical body? To have something to routinely practice (together) instead of pure thinking or feeling? (You've mentioned not loving the rule of life, which is tangentially related, I suppose).
I have similar questions to you Haley, especially in light of the popularity of writers like Comer and renewed interest in Willard. Would be curious to hear Kirsten’s thoughts or see where she’s already shared them!
Practicing the Way is one I haven’t read but I remember seeing some concern over a downplaying or ignoring of the actual sacraments given to us.
Going to be ruminating on that idea of “how are we doing?” as the people of God together. I wonder if there’s been a stripping of expectations for a communal commitment to practices and ways of life as Christians… and so, craving them still, individual formation becomes a consolation. It seems an overhaul would be necessary to see *us* more than *me* in the life of catechesis, formation, etc.
Excellent. Thank you. Two reactions:
1) I wonder if some (or many) of the folks who are declaring themselves "cultural Christians" are engaging at the cognitive propositionalist level. I hear from them an emphasis on the "principles" of Christianity (whatever that might mean) and a certain amount of self-conscious effort to remain students of and many admirers of Christianity, but not adherents to Christianity.
2) I've been noodling a lot (and not researching very much, to be honest) about how formation as it's imagined in Deuteronomy may bring the cognitive and experiential elements together. (I wrote about that here, but I promise that's not why I commented)
Is there anyone who has actually put this sort of approach into a replicable plan you could take someone through?
working on this for you all ;-)
I'm in favor of what Kirsten is arguing here and feel one of it's honest strengths is not being a able to be made into a 'replicable plan.'
I get your point but I think there is much that can be done to make such knowledge transferable across generations that won't require people invent it anew out of their personal experience, especially since many never had had this in depth.
To provide way too much detail around my personal interest, I have two young boys who are making their steps to taking hold of their faith on their own. I recently finished a Spiritual Formation degree and have begun to put together what I want to function like what Kirstin so eloquently describes. Working against me is my low-church background in a family that was cultural Christian at best.
I can see the shape of it, and have been striving to live it with my children, but I don't the benefit.of having had it embodied from an early age. I am enjoying the process of passing on what I have learned academically and experientially but I would love to align with others further down this way.
I think the problem with this becoming a 'replicable plan' would turning into a dictionary of terms that could be handed off minus the cultural aspect. Or the other hand giving a recipe for a certain kind of culture but not having a language. Whereas conceiving of it as 'cultural-linguistic' makes it the type of thing we become to inhabit over time by both learning a grammar or language within a cultural frame. As they say about learning a language it becomes your primary language when you 'dream' in it. So when I think about living it with my children it's not simple passing off the language of the faith or bible knowledge or assuming inhabiting a certain church culture as such doing the work but the nature of learning to live into the narrative frame of the world of this God that is absorbs the rest of world into a bigger picture of a life of faith.
‘This goal of my own writing is to help you to know him when you see him, and to provoke your hearts to burn anew with the memory of his presence in your midst.’
In one sense, this seems so simple, so obvious, what every Christian should be doing. But on the other hand, it is the most incredible thing - that we could reach aside the curtain of heaven and actually see the One who made the universe.
That He lets us do this is mind blowing.
May He grant every part of that goal.
What role would you say spiritual disciplines play in catechesis - to practice this seeing, this learning of a language? The use of catechisms (instruction, study) alone & the "discipleship" model (applying the gospel to matters of the soul) alone are not sufficient for formation, as you point out. "He needs to watch what they do and how they do it by participating in their rituals, celebrations, and daily life." — It seems for many people, there were so few rituals, celebrations, or practices of daily life to wear deep grooves of the faith into their soul. There was marrying and burying and baptizing, and a lot community along with them. But the rhythms available to learn a "language" were just not there (any robust habits prayer - perhaps including the hours, fasting, sabbath-keeping, following the rhythms of a church calendar, etc, etc.) From my experience, a lot of what could have helped learn the language of faith in community were cut out at the risk of being "legalistic" or "works-based". They can certainly be used in ways that treat us as things or programmed computers. But many of us grew up craving trellises on which to hang the knowledge of catechesis and the soul-care type of discipleship. Maybe this is because they bring in the physical body? To have something to routinely practice (together) instead of pure thinking or feeling? (You've mentioned not loving the rule of life, which is tangentially related, I suppose).
I have similar questions to you Haley, especially in light of the popularity of writers like Comer and renewed interest in Willard. Would be curious to hear Kirsten’s thoughts or see where she’s already shared them!
This isn't Kirsten, obviously - but I appreciated this take: https://www.backagainwords.com/p/cage-stage-comerism
...and now I see it's been put behind a paywall since I read it.
I should have my own blog set up soon but here's two different drafts I've written on Comer's project:
https://medium.com/@wittgenstein_tractatus/several-years-ago-i-remember-seeing-rob-bell-speak-about-his-newest-book-and-him-telling-a-story-4fe2925c2941
And in response to a review:
https://medium.com/@wittgenstein_tractatus/christianity-today-is-hosting-a-helpful-review-of-practicing-the-way-by-john-mark-comer-a32d6ef2c307
Excellent and helpful - thanks for sharing those.
Practicing the Way is one I haven’t read but I remember seeing some concern over a downplaying or ignoring of the actual sacraments given to us.
Going to be ruminating on that idea of “how are we doing?” as the people of God together. I wonder if there’s been a stripping of expectations for a communal commitment to practices and ways of life as Christians… and so, craving them still, individual formation becomes a consolation. It seems an overhaul would be necessary to see *us* more than *me* in the life of catechesis, formation, etc.
In follow up post I hope to compare it how this is Atomic Habit (James Clear) for Christians. It's a gospel of self optimization.
Yes--catechesis is not about making you a nice person.